Official Luthiers Forum!

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Well, I guess that settles it!

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Howard,

Of course ... it all makes sense. They fell through a wormhole and came out the other side as instruments of the gods.

Beam me up Scottie . . . ahead Warp Factor 5 Dave White39054.6763888889

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

It's the 'magic varnish' style of story all over again. (David Hume and Charles Beare have tested Strad varnish, using my mass spectrometer, and found it to contain nothing but the bog standard stuff available at the time to anyone).

Do you think that the violins etc made by Stradivarius and the other great Cremonese might be good because they were 'good violin makers'? Oh and after 300 years the spruce tops might just be opening up now?

Sheeesh!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I remember reading an interesting story that stipulated that Stradivarius had access to the timbre in an old dilapidated castle near (or in) his hometown... Now the story goes that this castle was very very old indeed and that the slabs of wood were old as the bible (that's my analogy, not in the article) and that it was seasoned beyond compare.

Is it true? I have no idea, but it's quite romantic none the less...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

When I took the Brune french polishing class, Richard was telling us that pretty much all of the Strads in existence today have had their plates recarved (I forget what they called it, something like "correcting the ...") because an original strad wouldn't really meet the demands of today's music. But they'll still refer to it as an "original" strad, it's sort of assumed that it's been done. (Calling Robbie O'Brien to correct me or add info if needed as he was part of this conversation).

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

If I recall... there is one unaltered Stradivari viola and everything else has been "modernized". That is, had the edges of the soundboard thinned out, the neck angle changed, etc.

Nowadays we would never do this, because we respect the intentions of the maker. If someone wanted to modify one of my guitars in such a manner I'd be happy to buy it back instead. Its flat out wrong.

I agree with Colin (no surprise). It is ridiculous to think the varnish is what makes a Strad a good violin. Strads are great violins, they were probably great violins before they were all modified. But they do have the greatest marketing tool of all - an aura of mystery and exclusivity. Surely that has more to do with their sound then the varnish.

Wish this guy wasn't from Texas. jfrench39054.7532175926

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
I soak my tops in 20 year old single malt. I don't know if they sound better as a result but I feel better..... [/QUOTE]

I soak myself in 8 year old scotch, then I'm not too concerned about tone.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Another group of researchers claimed that the chemical treatment was borax. Borax was available to them them and used to slow the ravages of wood eating bugs. It was not positioned as any chemist being needed or consulted, just simple borax and water......

When I heard this story it was also verified with mass spectrometers.

[/QUOTE]
Hesh, this is the same researcher that examined the borax treatment. Unlike Joshua, I'm not concerned he is from Texas.....I'm concerned he is from Texas A&M.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

    I was able to see Joseph Nagyvary years ago and, IN MY OPINION, it's
all nonsense. His instruments were of student quality...at best...and the
tone was commensurate with the build quality. He was also a novice
violinist who would not have been able to coax tone that would be
necessary to determine what makes one violin great and another less. The
beauty if having an expert player compare instruments to one another is
that their technique is very consistent and the comparison is much more
dependable because of that consistency.

    I'm going to have to go with the intuition and skill of Stradivari having
a bit more to do with it than the chemicals that were supplied by a local
chemist. I believe claims for the need for a chemist is bogus since borax
was the original substance that was credited with the procedure's success
and it was readily available for purchase at the time that Stadivari was
alive and building.

    Well then, on second thought, all of the best builders in the world
today have very little to do with the quality fo their instruments. Maybe
it's the finish...or the way the resaw guys cut the wood...or maybe the
glue that they use....or possibly......the bender temperature....

    Someone should do a study and secure some huge grants and fuding
to figure it all out.

   This has been a lot of wasted time and alot of wasted money, in my
opinion, and these guys ride it like a dead horse because the people
funding the studies are clueless, but fascinated with the prospect of
unraveling the mystique of a skilled craftsman's work without having to
actually put in the years learning the craft and developing all of the
sensitivity to the very subtle variations that present themselves each time
a new piece of wood lands on his bench.

    It's not chemistry and formulas as some folks would like us to believe,
but a set of skills and discernment that come only through hard work and
close attention to what small variations in construction and materials
bring each time an instrument is completed. The guys who want you to
believe that numbers and formulas can be used to capture and explain
what the craftsman does, pour them out with great detail and convincing
fluidity in an effort to give the illusion that they have it all over their
competitors who choose to use their ears, hands and intuition to make it
happen instead.

    I have better math skills so i must build a better guitar,,,right? Please!
Put your hands to the wood and get to know how it behaves and
responds.

    When I see it...I just say "Baloney!" in response and ignore it. With the
infinitely variable palette of tonal and response offerings that are
presented by the organic materials we all use, it just doesn't work or
apply. At best, it is a lazy approach of generalizing in broad strokes
things that need to be realized in great detail.

    I've seen instruments from a few guys who use math to explain things
and to boost the perception that the guitar buying public has of their
instruments and skills. I played them with great anticipation and high
expectations only to realize that they're inexperience is obvious and their
level of skill is only in the developmental stages. The guitars were
completely in line, both in tone and build quality, with the number of
guitars each had built and it became more clear to me that it is a
developed skill that grows with experience and time listening.

   That's why I like to think the simple number 1200 violins built by or
under the close watch of Stradivari had more to do with their quality than
chemicals, wood treating processes or finish recipes. Just under 600 of
them are known to still be in existence and, who knows, his earlier ones
may have fallen apart or been thrown away because they didn't have that
world class tone that his best known instruments have become so sought
after for. He was learning on them and they were surely not as good as
his later pieces.

    Every luthier I've met, talked to or known personally has agreed that
each guitar they build exhibits more experience and has greater quality in
tone and construction quality than their last. Experience and repetition
are the parents of knowledge and skill in any trade and lutherie is no
exception.

    I hate to come off as being so passionate or gogmatic about this, but
I've followed these rediculous studies by people who have little to no real
experience or understanding of lutherie itself in the the area of violin
building, but I believe the dollars and time could be better spent.

    It all comes down to someone hoping to produce what they can claim
is the modern Strad violin to make a big profit.

    Once Nagyvary's entry level quality violins have been around for 300
years or so, let's give them a listen and make the call then....maybe they'll
be bringing as much as $5million a pop!

Sorry for the long post,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher39054.9183796296

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

I soak my tops in 20 year old single malt. I don't know if they sound better as a result but I feel better..... [/QUOTE]

This is a terrible waste, Hesh. Soak your tongue in it instead.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hesh a UK builder Fylde guitars does make a guitar using old single malt whisky barrels!



Fylde

You'll have to look under guitars on the site

Colin S39055.1809027778

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Thanks Colin, great website !

Another thing about the tone of old Strads ... the neck angle has been altered, and its now higher than Strad himself designed - so there is greater pressure on teh top - more sound and tone. want ot do somehting wimilar to a guitar - change the neck angle so that you need a higher saddle, you will get more downbearing, more torque, the guitar will in ll likelyhood get louder and to some sound better. As well, all of AS's neck joints were not dovetails - they were butt joints will a nail in them - now we use bolts !!1 its all come full circle. Other Strad have undergone wahts called skinning - the top is removed, and then carved to within a hair or two of its life - enough top wood left to support the finish - then an insode mold of the inner profile istaken, and a new top is created to fit inside the original. Its glued in and regraduated. None, save for one, have original necks, neck angles or FBs. In effect, calling them Strads is pretty much akin to calling Jeff Gordins race car a Ford ... only on the outside it resembles one.

I remember laughing a few years back, Brad Gillis of Night Ranger was on the cover of GP, holding his red 62 strat as he called it .. except that it had a new neck, tuners, floyd rose, PUs, output jack and cover, and paint - basically it was a raw 62 body from Fender - nothing else was left !!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

the comments about the changes to the existing stads are all true.

and kevin is largely correct i feel. stradivari built instruments, including guitars, or guitar like things, for something like 75-80 years, working up until shortly before his death in his early 90's. he no doubt learned a wee might about his craft in the process.

who knows, even the estimate of circa 1200 instruments may be on the low side. and perhaps more likely is that among the 600 or so that we know nothing about, well there just may have been some dogs that were considered not worth modernizing and passed unlamented.

but also just as likely, given the turbulent times in which he lived, is the possibility that some gems were destroyed in war or tumumlt.

i doubt we will ever know for sure.

but those who would try to sell their theories to the gullible and build repute via publicity are always going to be with us in all forms of endeavor. and if one is of a mind to, why no try what they propound, what will you lose but your time and money, and you might learn something.

that being said, i think i'll keep my borax in my laundry.

When the British nation took ownership of the Viotti Stradivarius, the most original Strad left, in lieu of taxes it was placed in the RAM museum. I play there with a small lute consort and in a larger consort and also I'm learning guitar from one of the tutors there. Anyway, David Rattray allowed my wife (RAM trained professional violinist) to play the Viotti, what a sound! He definitely could build good violins, however he did it. This may also have been the only occassion when a ?5m Cremonese violin has had a full on Scottish Reel played on it!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=jfrench] But they do have the greatest marketing tool of all - an aura of mystery and exclusivity. Surely that has more to do with their sound then the varnish.[/QUOTE]

What they have is a "BRAND" name before such things really existed.

I am sure you are right... I am sure they sound great, but whether they are THAT much better than the ones from the other Cremonese builders or not is probably arguable.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

No one knows what a Stradivarious sounded like when it was new. I've heard it said that they didn't gain their stature in the music world until about 80 years after Stradivari's death. This has been attributed to the effects of aging or that fact that the orchastra changed and musicians needed a more powerful instrument to keep up. The strads had been kept in a closet prior to that because they didn't fit the music of the day.

I'm inclined to think that they had a certain panache about them even when they were new. Strad's order book was filled with the names of dukes, princes, and kings. Somebody must have thought pretty highly of them for the crem de la crem to take notice.

As for the article, I'm inclined to think that Nagavery's
theories are inadequate to explain the quality of Strads. Soaking the wood in a mineral/brine may very well have helped increase the stiffness and reduce the weight. Perhaps it broke down some of the hemi-cellulose. You'd still need a builder that is at the peak of his craft to take advantage of it.

I don't believe that the quality of Strads is all hype. I've never heard one up close and I also lack the ear to make any sort of quified judgment even if id did. However, builders have spent centuries trying to recapture that sound and have failed. I find it difficult to believe that all those builders were incompetent. So, what did Stradivari, Del Gesu, and the Amati's know that has since been lost? That is a mystery.

I also find it perplexing that they "perfected" the violin almost as soon as the instrument reached its modern form. That in an of itself isn't all that unusual but the fact that no one else has been able to duplicate it is a bit of a head scratcher.

"my secret is one you have witnessed many times, and one that I can't leave
to posterity, because it must with my body go to the grave, for it consists of
the tactile senses in my finger pads, in my thumb and index finger that tell
the intelligent builder if the top is or is not well made, and how it should be
treated to obtain the best tone from the instrument."

- Antonio de Torres in a letter to friend, Juan Martinez Sirvent



P.S. - No, I'm not a curator of great historical documents, I just copied the
quote from a Wikipedia article. David Collins39055.787025463

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I read that story about the borax finding. I later learned that boric acid is commonly used in home brew insect repellent/poisons. Google "boric acid" and you will find many recipes. Perhaps something like that was used in Cremona on wood to keep the bugs away.

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Chris Nielsen
Soquel, CA.

[QUOTE=David Collins] "my secret is one you have witnessed many
times, and one that I can't leave
to posterity, because it must with my body go to the grave, for it consists
of
the tactile senses in my finger pads, in my thumb and index finger that
tell
the intelligent builder if the top is or is not well made, and how it should
be
treated to obtain the best tone from the instrument."

- Antonio de Torres in a letter to friend, Juan Martinez Sirvent[/QUOTE]


     This is precisely the type of "secret" that is responsible for the quality
of any builder's instruments, whether violins, guitars or other. Will any
body build an Omega after I'm gone? No. The same is the case for the
guitars of any builder who is workng alone in his shop creating guitars
with his one pair of hands and his specialized tools and fixtures.

    I have to say, though, that no matter how technical and aaccurate or
how efficient the tools, it's the builder's hands, eyes and ears that make
the instruments what they are. An inexperienced builder will build guitars
that show their experience and as they grow into seasoned builders, their
guitars show the evolution that has taken place through education and
exposure to more and more of their own instruments as well as those of
others.

     The "modernizing" of Strads by reskinning, neck resetting, and
extensive recarving of the plates may have destroyed the original tone for
all effects and purposes, but we'll never know.

      I have a portion of a handwritten shop manual that belonged to a
Stradivari apprentice and protege that I received from a friend who
purchased it in Italy 20 years ago. He paid more than $5k for this 80 page
leather bound notebook written in Italian and had had translated to
English and FAXed me about 40 pages of it in both languages to read.

     I began immediately to apply some of the fascinating theory in the
notebook and even some of the techniques used to achieve uniform mass
distribution for the top and back and experienced noticeable canges that
I've been refining since.

     Much of it would be dismissed by most as cryptic or useless in light of
much that has become readily accepted as necessary to build what has
become the modern guitar, but it has proven itself to work in my shop as
well as a few violin builders' shops that the book has been shared with.

    It just may be that these Cremonese builders had developed a deep
understanding of what makes the thing work....and what doesn't. This is
what they did from an early age and they were pushed to be creative and
artistic in every aspect of their work since that was just the nature of any
fine craft or system of expression at the time.

Just my thoughts and opinion,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Um, hey Kevin: Can someone get a copy of that Strad apprentice's workbook? Just the English version is OK.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Just a side note. I used to import beech and maple from yugoslavia and bosnia. These woods and other sugar sapped hardwoods are only allowed to be cut in the dead of winter and if there is any fear that these woods will experience warm weather the logs are boiled in huge vats, not so much for the bugs but for retardation of fungal and bacteria growth. Each mill adds their own chemical brew just as we would add chlorine to our pools. This practice has been in use for about 800 years. Hence, maybe a spot of truth to the question at hand.

Dean

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Dean